Obama's Religion and My Previous Post
I wasn't saying there was something sinister about Obama's "57 states"... Just that since there is a United Nations-related Muslim group of 57 states, that Obama might have made a simple mistake - and this might be the cause.
Whether this reflects on his religious heritage or sympathies is something we all must decide.
Based on his choice of Churches, his support of partial-birth abortion, his support of the radical homosexual agenda, and his belittling references to scripture... I doubt his Christianity. Based on these actions and opinions, he is more likely a devout Muslim - saying whatever lies will get him elected - than a devout Christian.
My guess? He is an atheist and former expatriate who cares nothing about America or her cultural heritage.
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43 comments:
I totally agree with your assessment, Chris.
BHO was raised by a transient, anti-American, single mother who taught him all the ills this nation holds from a socialist point of view.
First, Malott, a devoit Musim is probably more likely to be against an agenda of partial-birth abortion, his support of the radical homosexual agenda, and his belittling references to scripture... than a mainstream Christian. Muslims hold most of the same beliefs Christians do.
Now I'm not going to say what the man's religion really is, but people sometimes forget that Christianity isn't a religion with one narrow interpretation. That's why you'll have churches that preach environmentalism, peace and love, as well as the Phelps church where they'll preach the killing of gays, or the KKK, a Christian organization that thought it was OK to hang blacks and Jews.
Just because the big OB has these beliefs doesn't make him less of a Christian, and more of a Muslim, or a Scientologist, or a Shintoist. It may not be YOUR sect of Christianity, but it can be others, too.
Janice,
Well said.
Mojo,
My narrow view of Christianity tells me that a "devout" (see my post) Christian does not support abortion or gay legislation, and does not belittle scripture.
A "devout" (again, my post) Muslim would feel free to lie to the Infidel to further his purposes.
But again, I think the guy is agnostic at best...
From the Koran, Surah 40:28: "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies."
mojo, haven't you ever heard of taqiyya, which is essentially religious deception by muslims to further islam? Come on, you're not stupid mo!
Mojo,
You're absolutely right that if BO were a devout Muslim acting on his beliefs, he would oppose abortion of all kinds.
Personally, I believe Obama worships at the altar of Opportunism. That's his god. Or, maybe he himself is his god and opportunism is his doctrine. That detail doesn't matter too much. He joined Wright's church because, as a carpet-bagging community organizer, that's where he needed to go to get credibility. When Wright became a liability, BO dumped him. The next church Obama finds will be the one that gives him the best political advantage. It's that simple.
Puppy,
To many people, it is that simple -- because they've already decided that Obama is an evil that must be thwarted, and they're willing to take any interpretation of truth that agrees with their preconceived notions.
They can't seem to fathom that people may have different reasons for their actions that don't fit into an "us-versus-them" mentality. Sure, Obama's actions may raise questions, but unless a mind is predisposed to disbelief, it won't jump to the worst possible conclusion.
Janice,
I don't claim to be a Muslim scholar, but a little online research from unbiased sources shows that the concept of taqiyya does not mean: essentially religious deception by muslims to further islam. It refers to a the thought that Shi'a Muslims are allowed to hide their beliefs if they feel their life might be forfeit if their beliefs are known. It is only permissible as long as the true belief stays in the heart. It's not about furthering Islam, but about protecting their lives under a strict set of circumstances.
This is the same test that Daniel had to endure when he was captured and held in Babylon. There, he and his companions ostensibly worshipped at the altars of the "false gods" and it was OK as long as God stayed in the heart.
I'm gonna knit-pic here mo. The definition I gave was from an islamic scholar, Karen Armstrong, hardly a right-wing bias. If you hold you understanding of taqiyya, then you must believe muslims when they say jihad is within ones soul as well. If that's what you choose to believe you've been reading biased sites, albeit left-wing.
Drawing an equivalence between Daniel and the muslims lying to the infidels is quite a stretch. One more example of the muslims ripping off Jewish and Christian traditions and rituals.
Drawing an equivalence between Daniel and the muslims lying to the infidels is quite a stretch. This argument only makes sense if one accepts YOUR definition of taqiyya, which many Muslims (really the only ones who matter in this argument) don't. With the definition I gave, the Daniel situation is exactly the same as the situation that calls for taqiyya. It's not a wholesale forgiveness of "lying to the infidel".
One more example of the muslims ripping off Jewish and Christian traditions and rituals.
But you see, they are all part of the SAME TRADITION. Islam is related to Judaism just as Christianity is.
Mojo,
Maybe I missed your point...
But Daniel was put into a den of Lions because he wouldn't "go along to get along."
And his buddies - Shadrach, Meshack, and Abednego were thrown into a fiery furnace for the same reason.
Because of Obama's beliefs and votes, I think he is neither Christian nor Muslim... And that Skyepuppy correctly pegs him as an opportunist.
And, I wouldn't argue with Janice on the subject of Radical Islam... The girl knows her stuff.
But you bring up interesting points and I appreciate your heart-felt input.
Mojo,
I haven't called Obama "evil." I don't think of him that way. There's nothing evil in what he proposes. I just think his plans for our country will prove disastrous, both domestically and with foreign policy.
As far as my assertion that Obama used Wright's church opportunistically, that came from Obama's mouth. He said that he was told that if he wanted to fit into the Chicago community that needed organizing, he needed to hook up with Wright (my summary of what I heard Obama say, not his words). That's exactly what he did.
mo, Christians and Jews do not accept the "final" revelations islam claims. If you believe that then you're a muslim. Right?
Mohammad took the (Jewish and Christian) traditions and placed an islamic spin on them to lure converts, figuring the traditions would make them comfortable w/ this pediphilic, illiterate, nomad's new found religion.
When his "final" revelation claims failed he took to the sword. My understanding of taqiyya (and most every thing I know about islam) come from muslims. Also, it's not my difinition, it's in the koran.
Chris, Skye, Janice:
^5's all around!!!!
Delta
OK, I'm gonna do a half-hearted mea culpa here. I was sure I remembered a passage in Daniel where Daniel took part in the rituals of the false gods because he knew they weren't real. But I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else... *SMACKS SELF UPSIDE HEAD*
That being said... what did Janice mean, then, when she said, One more example of the muslims ripping off Jewish and Christian traditions and rituals.
Janice,
As I said, many Muslims don't accept Karen Armstrong's definition of "taqiyya". Going back to what I said earlier, as with Christian denominations, there are many different groups within even the Sunni and Shi'a sects. As with any religious scriptures, the interpretation is open and changes subtly from imam to imam. They may not want to admit such, but...
Also, it's not my difinition, it's in the koran.
Once again, that's your interpretation of the Koran. When religious texts shift into metaphor and flowery language, sometimes people are bound to make weird assumptions about what is meant. But I'm not an apologist for the Muslims. I think you're all wack! ;-)
Christians and Jews do not accept the "final" revelations islam claims. If you believe that then you're a muslim. Right?
I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. Do you mean that neither Christianity or Judaism believes it is the final Word of God? Then I'll have to point out that Christ, according to his apostles, considered himself to be the fulfilment of the law, and that all that was left was the apocalypse. That sounds final to me.
Puppy,
As far as my assertion that Obama used Wright's church opportunistically, that came from Obama's mouth.
I've actually never heard him say this, and I can't find a direct source on the Internet. Where can I find this?
And I guess it doesn't matter in the long run. From what I HAVE heard him say (or read in transcript) I gather he was like a lot of Christians who have just never found a home church. Many choose the church that's closest to their front door. Some choose because they knew someone else who went there. I've also read where he said Trinity would have been a bad choice if he was looking to use the church as a springboard -- it was considered too dangerous. But opportunist or no (and I haven't argued either way) I don't see how an opportunistic start automatically equates to no personal religious belief. Unless you believe that no Christian is opportunistic.
Mohammad took the (Jewish and Christian) traditions and placed an islamic spin on them to lure converts, figuring the traditions would make them comfortable w/ this pediphilic, illiterate, nomad's new found religion.
At least you didn't deny they all came from the same tradition.
Tsofah,
*Mojo sticks his tongue out at you* ;-)
Mojo,
Dang! I lost what I typed, and now I have to try to recreate it.
You WOULD ask me where I heard that about Rev. Wright. To the best of my recollection (never very good) I heard it on Hugh Hewitt's radio show when he was playing clips from the audio version of one of Obama's autobiographies (read by Obama himself). He said when he got to Chicago and was talking to someone in the community organizer world, the guy told him that he needed to get to know Rev. Wright. So he did.
And I didn't say Obama has no personal religious belief. I just happen to believe that for Obama his self-interest outweighs all else.
Puppy,
Maybe I mistook your saying that opportunism is Obama's god as you saying he's not a real Christian, as Malott believes.
1)I hate to tell you mo, NO-WHERE in any islamic sects is the koran or haddith open to interpretation. That's why muslims are stuck in the 7th century.
2)You mo, said "they are all part of the SAME TRADITION. islam is related to Judaism just as Christianity is" I said if you believe this you must be a muslim. Jews and Christians do not accept islam as the final revelation of God, only muslims believe it to be the last word.
3)On stealing traditions, I have heard muslims use Joseph's captivity in Egypt as a parallel to jihad and lying, maybe you got the wrong prophet in your rebuttal? Other examples, the prayer beads (100 names for allah) taken from the rosary. The skull cap they wear is a Jewish Yakima. Just 2 examples, but there's many more.
Janice,
I hate to tell you mo, NO-WHERE in any islamic sects is the koran or haddith open to interpretation. That's why muslims are stuck in the 7th century.
Then there's no difference between the Shi'a and Sunnis? And every imam preaches the exact same sermon every week?
2)You mo, said "they are all part of the SAME TRADITION. islam is related to Judaism just as Christianity is" I said if you believe this you must be a muslim. Jews and Christians do not accept islam as the final revelation of God, only muslims believe it to be the last word.
I know you must realize that Muslims actually believe Allah is the same guy as Jehovah, no? And that they also believe Abraham is a prophet? And they believe Jesus is a prophet? They just believe that the times for living by the words of those prophets is past (just as Christians believe that living under the Jewish laws is past)? How is any of this NOT "growing out of the same tradition"? And if you have a moral problem with that, I don't see how you can follow Christ, when there are so many parallels between the Christian traditions and Jewish traditions.
3)On stealing traditions, I have heard muslims use Joseph's captivity in Egypt as a parallel to [taqiyya], maybe you got the wrong prophet in your rebuttal?
Maybe, but it doesn't feel right. The stories of Daniel and Joseph ARE incredibly similar, though.
The skull cap they wear is a Jewish Yakima.
Ah, the Jewish section of Yakima, Washington. I hear they do a lot of logging up there, where they wear Jewish yarmulkes.;-)
mo, I do believe Christians and Jews are tied in heritage and tradition. My Lord is a Jew.
I DO NOT believe islam and their claims to be the final word from God. What don't you understand, Christians and Jews DON'T believe this, only muslims!
Nice how you can only critique me on my spelling, classy move that adds crediblity to your agruement.
Mojo:
No...that's like this: :-P
;-)
I DO NOT believe islam and their claims to be the final word from God. What don't you understand, Christians and Jews DON'T believe this, only muslims!
I think this requires a "duh". Of course you don't believe Islam is the final word from God -- you're a Christian. Just as Jews don't believe that the New Testament is the final word of God -- they're Jews. And Christians don't believe the Old Testament is the final word of God -- they're Christians.
None of that negates the FACT that Islam grew out of the same Jewish stew that Christianity did.
And remember this nugget of wondrous Janice-ness from the "Negro Bikers" post?
anonymous, I think you mean you're not your.
And then how I pointed out there how it's passe to point our spelling mistakes on the Internet? Remember that? That's what makes my statement here ironic, and therefore, funny.
Again mo, you're stating this final revelation as FACT, it is NOT fact. It did NOT evolve from Judeo/Christainity beliefs. This was a BRAND NEW religion! Even muslims claim the Torah and Bible have been tampered with thus making them false. Because they have stories containing Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus does NOT mean I see the as FACT!
Personally, I believe islam is EVIL.
Also, you remember a long past post and you can't recall a Torah/Bible story correctly? Give me a break!
I'm not going to go thru this again. What islam is, what it became was not a continuation of Judaism/Christianity. Period.
muslims want as much of a link to Christians and Jews as we want to muslims, that would be NONE! Except when it serves their purpose. The "People of the Book" have never been a friend of the muslims.
One more thing mo, are you sure you're not an apologist for islam?
Also, you remember a long past post and you can't recall a Torah/Bible story correctly? Give me a break!
Burns, doesn't it? And it was only a few days ago.
Because they have stories containing Adam, Moses, Abraham and Jesus does NOT mean I see the as FACT!
How can you say something like this and then turn around and say the religions don't have a common source? It defies logic and all sense of language. You can still go on and believe that Islam is evil. Whatever floats your boat. But an evil son can still come from a righteous father, and a good son can come from an evil father. That doesn't change the fact of their indelible relationship.
muslims want as much of a link to Christians and Jews as we want to muslims, that would be NONE!
Irrelevant.
are you sure you're not an apologist for islam?
Yep. Are you sure you're not a slanderer?
You are so petty mo. Did you remember which story supports your theory?
Let me ask you something, if islam is a continuance why don't muslims use our Bible as well as their koran or at least the Torah?
You have provided no evidence, besides the word of muslims.
The matter of prophets to islam are not facts. After Christ the Bible does not continue to provide scripture supporting another coming prophet.
The archaeology does not support (yours or) their claim to a finality in islam. Hell, they didn't even believe the dome of the rock was the 3rd holiest site in islam until the 1800's when Jews started buying land there.
If muslims believe what you claim, why are they trying to push the Jews and the state of Israel into the sea? Why do they deny the 2 temples existence? The evidence is clearly on the side of Israel, yet they say Nope, never had any temples at least not in Israel.
How have I slandered islam?
Slander Islam if you want, I guess. But I was talking about slandering me by insinuating I'm an apologist for Islam.
if islam is a continuance why don't muslims use our Bible as well as their koran or at least the Torah? You have provided no evidence, besides the word of muslims.
I get the feeling you're having an argument with someone else, because you keep bringing up ideas that I can't fathom have anything to do with what I'm actually saying. If the Muslims believe Abraham and Jesus were also prophets (do you believe they believe this?), how is that not a continuance of Judaism and Christianity? The message is altered, of course, just as the New Testament alters the law as given in the Torah. Yet you don't argue against Christianity being a continuance of Judaism, do you?
The matter of prophets to islam are not facts.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
After Christ the Bible does not continue to provide scripture supporting another coming prophet.
Except for the prophets of God described in Revelations. The Bible also doesn't argue against such a thing happening -- after the letters of Paul, the next thing the Bible talks about is the end of the world. That leaves a lot of time for more prophets of God to show up. I'm not arguing that they will show up, and I'm not arguing that Muhammad is a prophet of God. I'm just saying that the Bible doesn't completely and clearly shut the door on the possibility.
The archaeology does not support (yours or) their claim to a finality in islam
I make no claim of "finality", whatever that means, and I get the feeling this doesn't have anything to do with the Islam-out-of-Judaism idea.
If muslims believe what you claim, why are they trying to push the Jews and the state of Israel into the sea?
I dunno... 2000 years of habit? Look at it this way: if my mother-in-law showed up in my house and demanded that I leave my home, I might push back, too.
mo, agrueing with you is like rowwing with one oar.
You last comment shows how much you know about Israel and islam.
And as far as me slandering you, sue me. It's clear you're a sympathizer for terrorists.
It's clear you're a sympathizer for terrorists.
Sure, Janice. That's the obvious conclusion -- *boot to the head*.
2000 years of habit, islam came about in 690ad. Do the math and learn the history of the land.
2000 years of habit, islam came about in 690ad. Do the math.
I believe it's called poetic license, dork. Talk about being rigid.
And since Muhammad died in 632, and started preaching around 615, your 690 number is a little (by that I mean WAY) off the mark. So whether you wanted me to say 1393 years of habit, or some other number, maybe I'm not the one who needs to check her work.
And if you want to be more accurate, the squabbles in the Middle East go back a little further than Muhammad, to years BC unknown, and it's those I was referring to.
Why the hell does Obama's religion matter at all? Why not just focus on his stances on the issues, rather than getting into the tired old debate of "is he a Christian or isn't he"? I mean, that debate will literally never end, since there are so many different versions of Christianity, so why do you even want to waste your time trying to "prove" that he isn't a Christian?
DORK!
I didn't call you names, then again you're just following the terrorist play-book.
When did the debate go to the pre-islamic days? I thought we were argueing muslim beliefs?
Let me know when you change topics mo....
I didn't call you names
"Terrorist sympathizer" doesn't count, hmm?
When did the debate go to the pre-islamic days? I thought we were argueing muslim beliefs?
Because the problems in the Middle East extend far beyond Muslim-vs-Jews, and since you asked why the Muslims were trying to push the Jews out of Israel, I thought the answer was appropriate.
And after trying for umpteem comments to get you to answer the simplest of my points, and to help you get a handle on the most basic of facts about the religion you hate so much, I'm letting this topic go. Last word.
<-----END OF LINE----->
"Terrorist sympathizer" was an appropriate description of your comments, not an attack on you. Unlike DORK, you attacked me, not my argument.
The simplest of points, as you say, are not that simple. Just because muslims say this bedouin practice of war stole a few stories from the "People of the Book" does not make the religion and their claims FACT.
Time and again it has been proven, the koran is fraught with errors and contradictions. Contradictions attributed to allah do not make them any more true or factual because their god is the perpetrator of these stories.
The Bible and Torah do not contradict each other, only compliment one another. If islam is a continuance, as you claim, it makes both the Bible and Torah false. This is why their claim that islam is the "final revelation" does not hold true. And your apologist attempts to the contrary fall flat as well.
Hey, I have a thought. Let's elect a "good christian" like George Bush again. Because you know, religion is the most important qualification. I mean, you would never see good ol' Dubya lie to the American people to further his own cause... such as exagerating evidence of threats in Iraq so he could attack for no good reason. Or how he pardoned corporate executives who stole millions, or how he lied to get out of military service. Let's hear it for the christians! And while we're at it, let's make up stories that sound good about Obama! He sounds like a dirty foreigner! No wait! He's Muslim! He has everyone fooled, including our great leader, Dubya!
Idiots.
anonymous, you had me until you started the name calling, "idiots", then you lost all credibility.....
Class act you are, keep it up, you can only help BHO.
He had you going until the very last word? Wow, I've met 5-year-olds with a better grasp of sarcasm.
anonymous, you're all class...
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